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Bill Jamieson: When will Labour feel the ground shifting underneath its feet?



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Published Date: 01 August 2008
We should not underestimate the extent of the change that could be achieved without outright separatism.
POOR Gordon Brown. Poor David Miliband. Poor Cathy and Iain and Andy and all of them. Poor, poor Labour. If the party has an inkling of the seismic shift in our political life that is now under way across the UK, it is hiding it well. Its leadership
contenders so far appear condemned, like the Bourbons of France, to learn nothing and forget nothing.

Both in suddenness and in scale, the collapse of Labour support portends a change, not just within the Labour party but in the future constitution of the UK.

Wales and Scotland are both experiencing the end of a long period of single party domination. That in itself has massive repercussions for civic and political life. It is now likely that the next Westminster election will see substantially enhanced representation for the two nationalist parties.

At the same time there is little evidence of a significantly enhanced Conservative showing outside of England, raising questions of the legitimacy of a Conservative writ across the UK. This suggests that if the United Kingdom is going to survive as an entity at all, it will be by virtue of a move to a federal constitution. Indeed federalism may be the only means left to ensure the Union's survival.

Both in Scotland and Wales, government and its many related institutions are no longer in the gift of a single dominant party. One feature of this change will be to reinforce and strengthen the nationalist challenge. A second will be an enhanced role for the Scottish parliament and Welsh assembly as national institutions and focal points rather than as subsidiary "transmission mechanisms" for the policies of the UK government in London.

John Osmond, director of the Institute of Welsh Affairs, writing in the Western Mail yesterday, set out the likely change in the Principality: "In place of more than 100 years of single party domination, in which the possibility of Welsh popular sovereignty was extinguished, we now have the emergence of a civic culture, built round an inclusive National Assembly, with the potential for demanding sovereignty over at least the nation's domestic affairs."

The Labour rebuttal to all of this is that Scotland and Wales have succumbed to the politics of whinge and that Alex Salmond's first year as First Minister has been preoccupied with the exploitation – if not manufacture – of grievances against the London government.

Certainly no-one can beat us when it comes to grievance. In an outstanding article in the Financial Times earlier this week, Professor John Kay, a member of the First Minister's Council of Economic Advisers, declared that impotent resentment has long been a dominant theme of Scottish politics. Labour has railed that our economic problems are the fault of international capitalism, while the Nats dumped the blame on the English.

This grievance culture has done us no good. It has worked to block a more honest appraisal of how many failings (municipal socialism, welfare dependency) now, thanks to devolution, lie within our gift to rectify. It has also blinded us to a more practical culture of solutions: "It doesn't have to be like this."

It is this quest for new ideas that has, in part, fuelled the switch to the SNP. Kay argues that the surge in the fortunes of the SNP "is associated with a shift from a culture of complaint to a more constructive agenda".

Even were the grievance explanation valid, not all the grievance has been economic. For another major contributor to Labour's demise has been a keen desire to retain what's left of our sense of identity and belonging.

It is here Labour is now reaping its own whirlwind. It has never thought much of the politics of identity, still less the importance of history, tradition and belonging. Indeed, one of the insistent themes throughout the Blair years was the expunging of such concepts as nationalism and identity and the adoption of "universal values" of equality, human rights and progress through diversity. This rejection of the importance of history and nationhood led directly to a huge underestimation of the problems in Iraq and now Afghanistan. Blair's ahistoricism, his assumption that what the liberal West wanted could be foisted on anyone else, blinded him to the complexities of Iraq – and those of his own country.

Indeed, it has fuelled a deep unease in the UK. This led to desperate back pedalling, with Gordon Brown championing courses in British citizenship and oaths of loyalty to the Queen. How very non-British, as if loyalty could be conjured up by a certificate.

This has only exposed the government's insensitivity to matters of history and identity. But these concerns have long been close to Scottish hearts. We are proud of our history and culture, thank you very much, and we have no intention of wishing them away. We know who we are and from whence we come. We will not lose that which defines us. Is there a flicker of recognition of the potency of these concerns with David Miliband? On the contrary. He wants Blairism back.

So we are now in something more than a "crisis of Labour", but looking beyond the next election to the likelihood of changes in the constitutional landscape. Far-fetched though reports earlier this week may have seemed of a deal between the SNP and the Conservatives, it is likely some sort of modus vivendi will be sought that could bring about "max dev" while external affairs are handled at national/federal level. The Conservatives have much to gain from the prospect of almost unfettered dominance of domestic English political affairs with the Lib Dems as the main opposition party while the nationalist parties secure much of what they desire without a total breakaway from the UK.

That is an ultimate step only a referendum would determine, but we should not underestimate the extent of the change that could be achieved without outright separatism. Either way, Labour looks dead and buried.





The full article contains 1019 words and appears in The Scotsman newspaper.
Page 1 of 1

  • Last Updated: 31 July 2008 10:41 PM
  • Source: The Scotsman
  • Location: Edinburgh
  • Related Topics: Bill Jamieson
 
1

,

01/08/2008 00:15:10
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2

,

01/08/2008 00:40:03
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3

Dropscone,

01/08/2008 00:41:02
Continued....

Few countries benefited as much as Scotland from globalisation and imperialism.

The tragedy of deprived Glasgow East is that its condition is the result of measures that appeared for a time to represent the triumph of municipal socialism. But the decanting of poorly housed inner city residents to planned modern estates proved to be a disaster in Scotland as it did almost everywhere else.

The resulting decay is not easily arrested. The British government has funded urban regeneration programmes and schemes to attract industry to west central Scotland. In the end, there is not much to show for its expenditure although public spending in Scotland remains well above the UK norm. Overall income per head today is broadly in line with the UK average, thanks to two booming cities in Edinburgh and Aberdeen and the partial revival of the Scottish highlands.

The surge in the fortunes of the SNP, based on recognition of these economic realities, is associated with a shift from a culture of complaint to a more constructive agenda. The once barely concealed Anglophobia has been suppressed. The demand for unjust enrichment in the slogan “it’s our oil” has at least partly given way to analysis of a more substantive economic question. Why has Scotland’s growth rate not matched that of other small European states in the “arc of prosperity” that stretches from Ireland to Finland?

But Margaret Curran, Labour’s candidate in Glasgow East, offered no sense of this change in mood when she pledged to continue the fight against injustice despite defeat. Outcomes in Glasgow East are indeed unjust, but that injustice is not the fault of multinational companies, the World Trade Organisation, the UK government or other agencies outside Scotland. Scotland’s economic problems, like its opportunities, are of its own making.

A Scottish government cannot protect the country from the vagaries of the global economy and should not try. The need is to develop and exploit
4

Dropscone,

01/08/2008 00:41:43
Continued.....

The need is to develop and exploit the competitive advantages of Scottish businesses on an international scale. If Scotland seems to be drifting towards independence, it is not because of the economic logic of that outcome but because, like Ms Curran, opponents cling to a tradition of Red Clydeside that values heroic failure above pragmatic success.

The writer is a member of the Scottish government’s Council of Economic Advisers
5

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 00:44:39


The LibDem view of life - Federalism to save the day.

A bit of wishfull thinking though.

The Union is dead. It really is a case of WHEN not IF.

6

Senga Jean,

01/08/2008 00:51:15
#5 How absurd. Federalism when the biggest party is ten times the size of others is a nonsense. Independence is the sensible choice. Unionism is divisive and tears away at the cooperative possibilities and is cruelly separatist. The SNP policy is the only sensible solution.
7

a proud doonhamer,

Dumfries 01/08/2008 01:48:16
After reading this article and comparing it to Alf Young's pitiful diatribe, I am more convinced than ever that it is time for a new generation of media to take over from the unionist dinosaurs that have plagued us for so long.
8

Jock Politicaljunkie,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 02:24:46

#6 & #7, Senga,

I KNOW the idea of Federalism is Absurd. My post at #5 states that the LIBDEMS (not me!) hope/see that as the unions saviour. I also point out that they are guilty of wishfull thinking on that! And I finish by declaring my opinion that the Union is Dead! I think we're both on the same side.

Independence is the ONLY way forward for Scotland.

9

Nikostratos,

01/08/2008 05:30:26
Bill Jamieson says
"Wales and Scotland are both experiencing the end of a long period of single party domination"


Bill Jamieson says
"of a deal between the SNP and the Conservatives, it is likely some sort of modus vivendi will be sought that could bring about "max dev" while external affairs are handled at national/federal level. The Conservatives have much to gain from the prospect of almost unfettered dominance of domestic English political affairs "

Bill Jamieson somewhat contradicts himself...single party dominance is bad and then again good its ending and at the same time just changing dominant parties.


Perhaps bill doesnt have a clue.......
10

donald anderson it's me,

weegieland 01/08/2008 05:40:27
The LIBS proposd Federalism at the end of the 19th c, in order to save the Brutish Empire.

The dinosaur's brain is in its tail, thus HM Labour did not notice the ground shaking under its feet, nor the political earthquake coming from Glasgow East. That is why Labour dinosaurs are becoming extinct, after evolving into the Tories.
11

Colin Wilson,

Aberdeen 01/08/2008 06:37:58
"We should not underestimate the extent of the change that could be achieved without outright separatism."

Unionism is the real separatism. Union with the UK keeps Scotland isolated and voiceless in the world community.
12

MacGillicuddy,

01/08/2008 08:07:48
Quote:-

" Labour looks dead and buried. "

As the unlamented Dewar once said, " I like that! "
13

gus1940,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 08:45:15
@5

'WHEN not IF' makes a nice slogan.
14

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 08:57:07
6

Observation:

Sensible (twice) and the SNP in the same sentences.

How absurd.
15

Jung,

01/08/2008 09:17:33
#16
Absurd?

Au contraire, YOU are the absurd one with an oxymoron for a moniker!
16

,

01/08/2008 09:20:08
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17

ptdoug,

01/08/2008 09:20:55
Cont...


As Alex Salmond understands better than most, our world is one of interdependency, a world in which transnational institutions, such as, for example, the UN, the EU, the IMF, the World Bank, the WTO, Nato - often have more sway than mere nation states.

The SNP recognises this and so, I reckon, do most Scots. Again, most Scots who would contend for independence are not so naive - or so bad - as to think that the case and momentum for independence can be based on anti-English grievance. Sir Malcolm Rifkind, no less, dealt with this point brilliantly a few years ago when he pointed out that while Scots may occasionally be irritated by the English, they do not have serious grievances with them.

The essence of modern mature Scottish nationalism is simple. Scotland already is a nation, with a distinguished and proud history. We have our own legal system, our own church, our own educational traditions and so on.

What we do not have is our state. We are a nation waiting to become a state. No Scottish nationalist is trying to create a nation out of another nation: our nation already exists. All we are trying to do is to create - or, technically, recreate - a state to go with a currently stateless nation. This is not the work of rogues. What Scottish nationalists wish to end is nothing to do with England or Englishness. What they wish to end is the British state.

Why this should be so controversial and emotive beats me. I could write a book about the failings of the British state. Indeed, I have just written not a book but an essay for a forthcoming book on independence in which I try to explain that the British state, for most of its 301 years, has been anything but a success.

It has had a few periods of extraordinary greatness - most recently in the 1940s, when Nazism was defeated and then the virtually bankrupt state embarked on a huge and nobly intended experiment in welfarism.

But these were exceptional years. Since then there has been st
18

ptdoug,

01/08/2008 09:21:26
Cont...

But these were exceptional years. Since then there has been steady, corrosive and very sad decline. The reasons for the decline are many but the decline itself is indisputable.

And yet Mr Moore states that the break-up of Britain would be a catastrophe.

Catastrophe is a most powerful word. Catastrophic for whom?

For the people of England? Hardly. For the people of Scotland? Hardly. For the rest of the world? Hardly. There are plenty of genuine ongoing catastrophes in the world; Mr Moore should ponder carefully on them.

To return to where I began: I sense - and I very much hope that I am wrong - that we may be in for a period when certain elements in the English (sorry, British) media seek to tarnish the concept of nationalism with all sorts of innuendoes and seek simultaneously to smear Scottish nationalists, and particularly nationalist leaders, by indirect association with seriously bad people elsewhere.

This is unfortunate, and it will not elevate, or even maintain at the present standard, the level of debate as we continue to progress through a period of constitutional change.



19

Mr. Lachie Todd,

Edinburgh 01/08/2008 09:25:08
Implacable opposition to Devolution destroyed the political base of the Scots Conservative Party which fatally refused to move with the times, and 10 years later still remains at the margins of Scottish political life.

Ironically, the same constitutional change, which was supposed to "kill Independence stone dead", will in all probability lead to the implosion of the Labour Party in Scotland.

20

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 09:35:05
Very good article, I agree with all the points made.
A conservative whitewash of labour in Englandshire would be good for Scottish nationalism, as it would
render Labour without influence. That way , they would no longer be able to obstruct the SNP as they drag the country back up on to it's own 2 feet.

However, if we do achieve all we desire while remaining in the union, then that is going to take a hell of a lot of concessions from the tories, conssesions they may feel they don'y have to make.
Why should they bend over for a country where they don't even register on the political scale.

No, the only way we can truely reach our goals is to be independent on all matters, where choices can be made that take Scotland's future seriously.

Nice try though.
21

Conway,

01/08/2008 09:36:56
I dont accept that a form of Confederation couldnt work, it does in Canada ! A province in Canada has more powers than Scotland a nation has at the moment and the provinces in Canada are different sizes and populatiöns.As Scots are canny folk this may be the road that unsure Scots would prefer to try however the drawbacks are that it would still be posible for our young men and women to be asked to fight in illegal wars and also our natural resourses would still belong to the federal (Westminster) goverment. But the biggest drawback for me is that Scotland would still be tied to being British.
22

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 10:11:59
#23 Exactly, no matter how you look at it, a halfway house solution will always have drawbacks for Scotland.
We either wish to determine our own future, or we are happy for london to do it for us. For me it's a no brainer.
23

,

01/08/2008 10:20:47
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24

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 10:23:31
#11 No mate, it's you who have shown you haven't a clue. You are under the impression that this will all blow over and we will all soon be happy to pass back under the union yoke. Hopeless, and you will be left slack-jawed as Labour and the "union" become less and less relevant.
25

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 01/08/2008 10:31:57
I'm sorry Conway, Scotland will always be "British" in that you share an island with two other countries that is called Britain.

From what I've read on various Scots news sites regarding grievances had with your National Government, I think they'd be solved if the UK was reformed to where powers of the National Government were limited by constitution and unalterable without the consent of each of your four countries, a la the US, Canada, Australia, and any other nation with autonomous subdivisions.

A national government whose competence is only in areas that affect the country as a whole, and all other powers reserved for the Scottish, English, Welsh and Irish parliaments, would fix much if not all that is considered broken.

For those who see Westminster as irrevocably evil, and think independence is the only answer, always remember this: Absolute power corrupts absolutely. While SNP seems virtuous now, sooner or later, their governments will start to spend money on unnecessary items, commit acts of questionable legal and/or moral status, and begin to know what's best for you. If not SNP, then Labour, or the Tories, or some other party that forms government for the day.

Corruption and superiority complexes are like water, at first, it'll flow and cause a crack in the surface, and before you know it, a Grand Canyon has formed.
26

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 10:32:03
#16 Another typical unionista retort. Nothing , absolutley nothing of relevance to add to the debate.
If that is not the sign of a lost cause, I don't know what is.
27

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 10:38:50
#27 That maybe so in America, indeed with the latest porkbarrel scandals, we can see that that is how it is on your side of the pond. As of yet, despite their very best efforts, Westminster has been unable to land a single shot against the SNP in terms of corruption or financial miss-management. Compare that with the other corruption and scandal drenched parties the Scottish people are supposed to choose as their political masters.

Believe it or not, not all politicians are corrupt, and compared to the tories or Liebour, the SNP are positivley angelic. There may be no hope for the US, but that does not mean Scots should give up now.
28

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:54:45
#Otis Boone

The question would be what advantages is their to scotland to remain having shared powers with the other countries that make up the uk.

Having all powers at the scottish parliament (ie independence) means scotland can decide all issues for herself.

If you are going to join a power sharing arrangement like the uk it must be for a reason. One major issue is the fact that scotland are england are so differently politically aligned. This ends up with england who is 10times the size of scotland running the show. If england wants something, the scotland has no choice. It is simple political arithmetic. We saw that when england continually returned the tory party for 17yrs and they could barely get any mps elected in scotland (or wales).

The other issue is if you are going to have shared powers and a union why the uk. Why not just the eu. To a large extent you could argue that the eu development has superceded any need for the uk.

The eu gives a single market for the economy. The eu offers in my view a better option of the euro rather than sterling which has been damaging to scotlands economic interests. Things like environmental policy for climate change and global foreign policy issues are better done at a eu level.

Taking out the emotive independence or union angle and looking at it just from where powers lie sp, eu, or westminster. I really find it difficult to find anything best done by westminster.
29

Alan B,

01/08/2008 10:55:50
#21 Mr. Lachie Todd

Interesting post
30

Conway,

01/08/2008 12:33:41
Alan Brown#30
I have to agree with your point that the EU has and is replacing the need for Westminster. The UK was one of the first modern political units to accept a single currency a joint military command etc the EU is taking on this role and with Gordon Brown signing up to the Lisbon treaty ,Westminster is becoming an expensive tourist attraction.
Ottis Boone#
As for being British would you say that the Rebublic of Ireland is British just because it is part of these islands ?
31

Venachar,

01/08/2008 12:44:45
Otis, why do you think there were so many Scots signatures on the Declaration of Independance? We've been saying this for years.
Even in 1900, federalism was proposed for the British Isles - no it was the status quo otherwise it would affect the Empire. Look what has happened since!
Vested interest will never change voluntarily.
32

morris,

edinburgh 01/08/2008 12:58:27
21
Poetic justice if you ask me!
The New Labour Party (North Brutish Branch) will indeed face implosion at activist level(those that are left),but their supporters (those that are left) will be too stupid to comprehend anything,as they always have been unless its reported in the Daily Retard.
For left wing of the Labour Party read left ages ago or left behind!
We may see Labour split and create a genuine Scottish party,so that they can get their snouts back in the trough after independence.Personally Id sooner see them dispapear completely,being composed of quislings and idiots.
33

Number 6,

Germany 01/08/2008 13:19:58
#23 AHH Canada, a beautiful country full of brilliant bands. Did you know the Prime ministers of Canada, for the first 24 years (I believe) were all Scots.

Not relevant maybe, but an intresting fact never the less
34

livilion,

livingston 01/08/2008 13:35:52
27 Otis Boone,Sacramento
Scots live on an Atlantic Archipelago called the British Isles or, where you live, England.

There's the rub.

Britain is run, understandably, for the convenience of the majority of the population, which happens to live within commuting distance of the City of London.

Those who live on the fringes, such as the Celtic countries, have had to get by on political hand-me-downs intended for the English 'Home' Counties, usually with disasterous consequences to a greater or lesser degree for Scotland.

The sainted Margaret Thatcher's vendetta against the Trades Unions and her experiment with the Poll Tax being two recent examples which evoke huge pain and reactions hereabouts.
The way that a North Sea oil bonanza was and is being squandered for the benefit of 'ivory tower' projects in London is also a sore spot.

In Scotland we face the prospect of another generation of Tory government very shortly which Scots by a huge margin will have activily voted against, the other side of the imfamous West Lothian Question.

What we in Scotland need and want is a parliament that is accountable to us and is governed by the people for the people of Scotland in their best interests, just as is normal for the rest of the democratic world.

How would the USA fare if it was run by the government of Canada or Mexico, you would still all be Americans?

35

aedis,

Glasgow 01/08/2008 14:09:29
tinyurl.com/6f2us9

The real numbers of Labour's Scottish membership are worked out on this website:-

---------

Then there's the collapse in their membership - sitting at 158,868 UK-wide at the end of June this year, compared to 407,000 in 1997 - a drop of 61% in 11 years.

They don't publish Scottish figures, but a population share of their UK figure, assuming Scotland to be 9% of the UK population would give them 14,298 members - the same size as the SNP except that the SNP is increasing in size and Labour is shrinking.

Looking at Labour's Scottish accounts, however, tells a different story - membership and subscription fees for Scotland fell from £123,076 in 2006 to £114,403 in 2007.

That figure includes "Fees received from MPs and MSPs", but that isn't quantified, so we'll have to treat the whole lot as membership income.

Labour's membership fees are £36 a year with a concessionary rate of £12 a year.

If every member paid the full rate there would be 3,178 Labour members in Scotland; if every member paid the concession there would be 9,534 Labour members in Scotland.

The true figure will be somewhere in between (remembering that there will also be an adjustment for MPs and MSPs).

No wonder Labour membership numbers in Scotland are secret.

-----------

It seems to me that Labour Party in Scotland are hiding behind that proportional 9% figure.

A figure of around 3000 would put them roughly on a par with the Scottish Conservatives and Scottish Liberal Democrats!

In which case there are liable to be more nationalists than unionists as members of political parties in Scotland.
36

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State........ Coatbridge 01/08/2008 15:21:02

And would they recognise the ground shifting ?

Let's face it Lie-bore......
They obviously can't see the political landscape changing.......
They can't see the change in the electorate.........
They couldn't face up to the "earthquake" in Glasgow before it happened...........
They can't decide on what or what not to do with Big Balloon..........
And he can't decide...or can he ?......No.....he's not sure whether he can decide...or not...or...maybe he can consider it...but then he decides to not make a decision.... but wait a minute ...that is a decision...THERE YOU ARE ...I AM A LEADER AND I'VE MADE A DECISION






Wonder if it's the right one though..?
Maybe I should make another decision...but it's hard deciding what to do...Oh..... if only Tony Bliar was here I could at least contradict his !!!!
37

Nikostratos,

01/08/2008 15:30:38
#38

well u NAtS like strong leaders don't ya
38

M.Corleone,

2nd Vatican State.......... Coatbridge 01/08/2008 15:37:07
#39

Don't cha wish your leader was strong like mine ?
Don't cha...don't cha

39

Scottish 'N British,

01/08/2008 15:47:40
38

"They obviously can't see the political landscape changing.......
They can't see the change in the electorate........."


lol
40

Graham Simpson,

Vancouver 01/08/2008 16:16:53
Congratulations Bill... an excellent article. This is like a breath of fresh air for the Scotsman at last your writers are beginning to examine the dominant political debate in Scotland. It is not Independence or Union... it is what degree of independence to we need or want? In other words 'Not necessarily Independence but Independence if necessary'. Any new Scottish Labour party that does not embrace this philosophy is doomed to failure. Likewise the Tories and LibDems already close to non relevance will have to jump aboard.
41

Daveunderwater,

01/08/2008 20:37:01
# 41


"Whoever is elected should highlight Salmond's weasly words which led to the many broken promises.

In effect, take him to task on his administration's record"

In other words, "Alex your a man of the world, how do you keep on doing it so well?"

"I mean why are you so popular?"

"We still can't take it in, John Mason won, unbeleivable!"

"What are we doing wrong?"

OR

"WHAT ARE THE SNP DOING THAT IS MAKING SUCH A DIFFERENCE?"

Difficult questions for Labour and difficult times ahead, for who ever wins the post of leader of the OPPOSING Scottish Labour Party, they will still have to deal with oor First Minister Alex

Difficult times indeed...
42

Doctor S,

01/08/2008 20:43:27
27
Otis Boone,
Sacramento 01/08/2008 10:31:57



A peculiar argument to make from someone who says he is in Sacramento.

Given that the American continent is one island, does that mean that Mexicans are Americans. If so what a strange way to treat fellow citizens that you build a fence to keep them out. There are still a few walls and fences left. Northern Ireland to name but one. With there peace walls in Belfast. Israel.

Are Canadians Americans. Chileans, Peruvians, Brazilians, Argentinians, they don't think so and neither does anyone else.

The British isles are purely a geographic term as is Asia and Europe.

At one time up until Henry 8. England paid fiety to Rome and taxes. The Pope was the head of there church.

England then set about doing the same with Britain, and to a degree have been successful, that wrong is about to be put right.
43

Iainbroch,

Moray 01/08/2008 20:43:47
Fiberalism - another quisling cul de sac!
44

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 01/08/2008 21:15:26
#30 - Alan
"If you are going to join a power sharing arrangement like the uk it must be for a reason. One major issue is the fact that scotland are england are so differently politically aligned. This ends up with england who is 10times the size of scotland running the show. If england wants something, the scotland has no choice. It is simple political arithmetic. We saw that when england continually returned the tory party for 17yrs and they could barely get any mps elected in scotland (or wales)."

Same phenomenon here and in Canada. The interests of Alberta and the Territories are variedly different that the Canadian Maritimes and Ontario - The west being uber-tory, and the Maritimes more moderate.

Stateside, the Bible Belt voted for Bush and the GOP in the 1994 elections, and dominated national politics for 14 years. The Democrats dominated for the previous 40 years. Prior to that, the GOP dominated from the election of Abraham Lincoln, a period of almost 100 years. We haven't thought about dissolving the union. In fact, there's a realization that every political movement has a season, and seasons change.

That's what I fear about Scots nationalism. Right now, a nationalist party is surging in popularity, the issue is popular, but what happens if it succeeds in dissolution of the UK, and then the "new era of good feelings" ends? Or the numbers end up not adding up. Will you be better or worse off? It took the US 140 years from independence to finally gain international clout (3 to lose a lot of it - but Bush is done in 5 months). Can Scotland afford to wait that long, or is She better off petitioning Her Majesty to abolish the Scotland Office and reform her realm to mirror that of Australia and Canada - a confederation or commonwealth where she is the national Queen, but separately and equally Queen of each state, province or home nation.

Not that I'm against Scottish independence. I find Westminster to be full of sychophantic blowhards that
45

Otis Boone,

Sacramento 01/08/2008 21:30:45
Doctor S

Please remember American was a term bestowed upon us in the 1700s by Britain. The fact we kept it while the other nations on these two continents chose other demonyms owes to our ancestors considering it a badge of honor during wartime, and due to the demonym Columbian falling out of use (hence where the term Washington, District of Columbia, and where the Canadian name "British Columbia" comes from). Alternately, since the other nations have a name directly invoking a national identity, eg. the United Mexican States (Mexico), Argentine Republic, the Federative Republic of Brazil, Bolivarian Republic of Brazil, etc., American would still fit as we are the United States of America.

The fact that other demonyms are used for other nations on this continent does not confer citizenship in the US on them just like living in Ulster and being Irish doesn't mean you can vote for the President of the Irish Republic.

Regarding that comment and the response from #30:

Scotland is on the island of Britain along with England and Wales. It was meant to be tongue-in-cheek. Apparently its meaning was missed.
46

ptdoug,

01/08/2008 21:54:29
Here is the article the Herald is suppressing....

For whom would independence be a catastrophe?

HARRY REID July 23 2008
Yesterday I read the main foreign story in the The Times. "Thugs and threats on the street as nationalists rally to arrested leader" ran the large headline. This was about the demonstration in support of Radovan Karadzic in Belgrade. I read the long, thorough report carefully. Nowhere it the text did the words nationalists or nationalism appear.

This made me uneasy. Something in the back of my mind made me return to Saturday's edition of another London paper, the Daily Telegraph. In a comment piece, its former editor, Charles Moore, discussed nationalism. Moore's main theme was that nationalism mobilises resentment. This is only partially true, but it is a defensible position. What was more worrying in his argument were the references to Karadzic and Robert Mugabe Moore presented his analysis of the downside of nationalism and then - the killer moment - claimed that this "could spread to Scotland".

To be fair, he wrote unequivocally that Alex Salmond was no Karadzic. But somehow the association was left lingering in the mind. Moore contented himself with describing Salmond as "a clever rogue who knows how to exploit grievance".

advertisementThree weasel words there: rogue, exploit, grievance.

As someone who believes in Scottish independence but has never joined the SNP, I believe this kind of language is insidious and potentially hazardous. Mr Moore may be in danger of fostering exactly what he claims to deprecate.

Salmond is not a rogue; he is a responsible politician. Under his leadership, the SNP has made it abundantly clear that we Scots live in a world where crude isolationist nationalism is not an option.

We are a nation waiting to become a state


As Alex Salmond understands better than most, our world is one of interdependency, a world in which transnational institutions, such as, for example, the UN, the EU,Re
47

Andyh,

04/08/2008 14:16:29
Around now, I should think.
48

Andyh,

04/08/2008 14:16:33
Around now, I should think.
49

henrymanchester,

UK 04/08/2008 20:23:17
We all deserve to be free of the United kingdom.

Perhaps its time for nationalist parties to stop paying these matters lip service for votes and actually do something more concrete.

Referendum on independence, anyone?

 

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